VBGamer (© 2002) - The State Of 2D Games

The State Of 2D Games
2dcoder	I've read over alot of posts, newsposts, here lately, and the majority of you seem to think 2D games, especially those coded in VB, are krapola. Why is that? 2D games are making a huge comeback, regardless what language they are coded in, the game quality STARTS with the programmer's abilities. If you can't program, no language or fancy engine will make your game any better.
sdw	quote: but if we keep trucking along, we can prove to this commercial guys, that it is by far a better choice of language. Sure VB could make a nice 2D game or remake and sell it. But VB ain't gonna make the next HL2, which is what the majority of people would rather play. IMHO I would much rather buy a professionally made commercial 3d game in C++ than a commercial 2d game made by a hobbyist in VB. My reasoning for this? Because a lot more work went into making the professional quality game and I know it will run smoother than a VB made game. Besides, 3D is much more realistic and exciting to play than 2d (most of the time) :) Before you say that VB is better than C++, stop and think about why nearly all commercial games are done in C++ and why all console games are done in C++. VB is a RAD and that makes it great for a hobbyist to play with so they don't spend all their time on technical programming stuff (this is why i use it), but VB is by far slower and single threaded and limited to windows only. Even if they use the same directx api, I will never get my game to be the same quality or speed like that of Diablo 2 (which is what my game is similar to) simply because VB cannot handle it. And don't you dare blame my poor programming for it! :P
EACam	i dunno...my game's gonna out do zelda SNES by far...
masterbooda	I think the main problem with 2d games is all boiled down to a matter of opinion... I for one, enjoy the game itself, and graphics, sound, and hooplah is secondary... now the diablo games to me, are nothing but this, because there is no substance in them... But I guess that I am an old fogy, whose first video game was warlords on the atari, which at that time was current technology... So I have actually witnessed the life of the modern day video game, from creation to current... pong, atari, commodore 64(computer yes, but really just a fancy console), nintendo, sega, genesis, supernintendo, playstation, n64, and so forth... So I am a little biased, when I hear that quality cannot be made in vb... because quality to me isn't how it looks, controls, or sounds, but how it plays... mainly does it have a story or a concept worth going back too.... today all your 3d games, mainly consist of playing other people, or just shooting yourself to the end.. and then what... nothing, buy the next one... there is no replay value in any of these... Not to mention, that these commercial games, are created by a whole team, not just one person, the 3d models alone, where created by at least 5 people, not to mention a sound staff, music staff, then a programming staff... So when one person makes a game, that is enterntaining and has a great concept, I look past the hooplah... and see it for what it is... a great game... DaBooda out...
2dcoder	"it seems like you have an inferiority complex with regards to 2D VB Games, Wan'na talk about it?" On the contrary, I KNOW VB games can be AS good as any other language. With the right core engine tools. The reason I started this thread was to wake up some programmers here that think it's VB's fault because of another pong or breakout clone, or even another lame 2D RPG, released using VB. (By the way, VB RPG's are rapidly becoming the PacMans of the 2000's.) "Because a lot more work went into making the professional quality game and I know it will run smoother than a VB made game." Similar remarks like this are (well, used to be) all over this forum, news posts. There seemed to be a false sense that if a VB game is slow or lame, it's VB's fault not the programmer. I've seen krapola games in BlitzBasic, DarkBasic, C++, etc,etc. And those fancy C++ games? Well the majority have an engine created that could be accessed via any programming language. The engine I use now can be accessed in any language, the fact that I use VB for the logic and setup, just makes it easier for me to get something up and running Not so much saying VB is the BEST choice for coding a game, my point is, those that can't get a decent game coded in VB probably couldn't get a decent game coded in any language.
sdw	quote: And those fancy C++ games? Well the majority have an engine created that could be accessed via any programming language. Well I'm sure that if you were right then the makers of some of these fancy C++ games would be using VB instead because it would save them plenty of money. The fact is, C++ can simply handle much more than VB. As far as 2D games go, sure VB can make it. But C++ can make a faster one. Also, if you're making a simple 2D game in C++ you can make it with something like SDL, making it available to more than just windows. If C++/Asm were used to create the engine then that must mean there's some sort of superiority going on here, otherwise you'd see VB being used for the core engine. And I don't know about you, but if I were to use a game engine then I would want to make some heavy mods to it so that it functions in the manner I meant the for my game to function, therefore for me to use an engine outside VB isn't going to help that much. Maybe I have the wrong idea of a game engine, but to me the game engine is what performs the functions of the game. The movement of the AI and management of menus and sprites. To make your game you simply supply some game values like sprite life and levels and also supply graphics and that makes a game which follows a storyline. If you use someone else's engine you're not making anything new or orginal, you're only making like a mod to it. Am I wrong?
Dan	quote: With the right core engine tools What would they be for you? quote: my point is, those that can't get a decent game coded in VB probably couldn't get a decent game coded in any language. Couldn't agree more...
sdw	quote: today all your 3d games, mainly consist of playing other people, or just shooting yourself to the end.. and then what... nothing, buy the next one... there is no replay value in any of these... To me playing other people online is as good as it gets because the game never dies until you get sick of it. If I were playing a 2d SNES game then I simply get to the end of the game, beat it, and then what? At least with a multiplayer game I can continue to compete against other players as good as I am, therefore you never actually win, you just play the game out til it gets old. Depending on how good the game is, this could be short or it could be long. I know I'm still playing some of these old multiplayer games to this day quote: Not to mention, that these commercial games, are created by a whole team, not just one person, the 3d models alone, where created by at least 5 people, not to mention a sound staff, music staff, then a programming staff... So when one person makes a game, that is enterntaining and has a great concept, I look past the hooplah... and see it for what it is... a great game... Well a lot of times these commercial games do have some good storylines, and the fact that they have many graphics artists and sound composers and multiple programmers is what makes the game commercial quality. Think about it, would you go see a movie if it had bad acting, horrible sounds, and horrible effects as long as it had a good storyline? You might try to watch it but you won't be able to take it anymore before it's over. Well, you get the idea. Sure you can make a fun game in VB but that doesn't always mean it's worth any money.
2dcoder	SDW, "Well I'm sure that if you were right then the makers of some of these fancy C++ games would be using VB instead because it would save them plenty of money." The argument here isn't VB is the best, the argument is why certain VB coders code a game like Pong or Breakout, and think "this is as good as VB gets". The fact is, someone could download one of the freely available engines here for VB and put together a game that would make some BlitzBasic, C++ coders step up and take notice. I used to code console games a long time ago (showing my age now) and we used a very high level C macro enviroment. The goal was to make the logic as easy to comprehend as possible so any programmer could jump in and understand the code. While the engine/render routines were coded in assembly langauge. I do think you have an incorrect grasp on game engines in general. Some of the game engines posted on VBGamer on general purpose engines that allow you to do the core logic programming in VB but all the render routines are (usually) optimized for speed in a seperate .dll or class. These are the best engines to use for a VB progammer because they do not limit you to a certain style of game. You could code anything from Pacman to Zelda with these engines. A dedicated engine similar to what you describe, in my opinion isn't really programming, it's more like scripting a movie. Both can be a rewarding experience, but I prefer to use an engine with no restrictions on what type of project you can code. Dan, I am currently using SpriteCraft because at this juncture I'm considering some web based content and it can be used with VB Script as well.
2dcoder	"Sure you can make a fun game in VB but that doesn't always mean it's worth any money." Or you could code something totally original in VB, with good graphics, good sound, a good story line, and make a ton of money. Right? Edit: Any game that is "fun" can indeed make money.
masterbooda	The only point I was trying to point out, is that a 2d game, written by one person, can be just a good, if not better than one written by a team... and yes I watch movies for the story and direction, not the production... this is what I mean by a matter of opnion.. I believe the original idea behind this post was to dispute, why people feel 2d games are second hand to 3d... It is a matter of opinion... I like 2d, some like 3d... there is no answer to this, but as for commercial quality and all that... I am not going to comment on this anymore... for I simply believe that 2d isn't big in the market, because most people want to stay online and blast eachother in 3d, and spend a ton of money on a 3d card, that has to be set in a tub of liquid nitrogen to run... It is simply a matter of opinion... DaBooda out...
masterbooda	I just wanted to add, that the majority of people around my age, 29, will rather play the 2d instead of the 3d, because we grew up on 2d... 3d is still if you think about it, an infant in the video game arena, the closest thing to 3d in the 80's and very early 90's was flight sims, with there polygon glory... then games like doom and wolfenstein, came along, and from then on 2d has been weeded out of video game arena, commercially at least and especially now with the state of video cards... Look at directx7 to directx8 to see this... yes you can do 2d in directx8, but you are really just merely tricking it... DaBooda out...
sdw	Ugh liquid nitrogen? ... BOOM! :P Thats what I call intense gaming. Don't get me wrong, it's possible for VB to make some really cool games and I would like to point out totallyscrewed software for Jim's cool action rpg. Heck why would I even be here using VB if VB coulnd't make anything halfway decent? If you can make a game in VB that sells then thats great, good for you. quote: Or you could code something totally original in VB, with good graphics, good sound, a good story line, and make a ton of money. Right? Sure it's possible but then again it's possible for me to find a million dollar bill on the sidewalk. If you can show me a game coded in VB that's making some guy rich, then I'll glady shut up about VB not being commercial quality. I'm not really into making games for the money, I code games because I enjoy doing it and sharing it with others to enjoy it (also to show off my computer knowledge ;) ). quote: It is simply a matter of opinion... Yes it's all just a matter of opinion and it just so happens that your opinion is WRONG! j/k :) P.S.-How difficult would it be to put an old game like lolo or joust together from scratch? The more I think about it the more I realize that it couldn't be that difficult at all, except that I'd be breaking all sorts of copyrights. Hmm, think I might get to work on that as soon as I fix windows.
2dcoder	"If you can show me a game coded in VB that's making some guy rich, then I'll glady shut up about VB not being commercial quality." wait a sec, if you think most commercial games are making million$ you need to read the trade journals and research game development a little more. Commercial success and making money are 2 different things. The guy that codes a tetris clone and sells 100 copies could very well qualify as a shareware success story. The "team" that codes the latest fps needs to sell 1000's and 1000's of product just to break even. Each programmer MIGHT make 40k-100k per year. Game programmers coming out of college are getting programming jobs starting around 35-45k a year. No one is getting rich (quick) anymore. Granted the big names are still making money, primarily because they sell "sequels" every year to the same customer base. And it has been mentioned before that a high profile game might not even make a profit until the 2nd or 3rd sequel. Just like the music business where the artist doesn't make any money until the 2nd or 3rd CD. That's why they pump out a game (or cd) every 9 months to a year. But let's get back to reality, your definition of success and my defintion are 2 different things. Obviously you're young and have been spell bound by the marketing glitz of the big games out today. If you wrote a VB game and sold 100 copies, would you consider that a success? I 100% would. Now do the same thing for 10 titles and you have yourself a viable business, and THAT is EXACTLY how the top shareware developers do it today. And alot of those games are, you guessed, 2D. I just recieved the latest Electronic Games mag, and they reviewed a 2D side scrolling shooter that got decent reviews. Imagine that!
2dcoder	"P.S.-How difficult would it be to put an old game like lolo or joust together from scratch?" If you don't know the answer to that already, I would seriously invest in some coding books and start reading.
masterbooda	<How difficult would it be to put an old game like lolo or joust together from scratch?> I'm actually working on a lolo remake, and the AI alone, is killer, there is all these sprites, with differen't behaviors, alone you have to check about 5 things before the sprite moves, a certain direction.... It isn't easy... trust me... making a sprite, actually make decisions, is a very hard programming task... I believe you are confusing graphics, with the actually meat of the program... for the graphics are the easy part, trust me.... And people who program 3d can get away with just the graphics, and very little meat... but I will admit, the 3d programs, that are obviosly written well, do capture my enjoyment... but unfortunatly there are quite a few horribly written 3d games.. DaBooda out...
Peter	Its funny how the vb game community seems to go in cycles. I swear that you would see a carbon copy of these sorts of threads about 3-4 years ago.
Almar Joling	quote: Originally posted by Peter Its funny how the vb game community seems to go in cycles. I swear that you would see a carbon copy of these sorts of threads about 3-4 years ago. Personally, because I feel the quality of future projects has gone downwards a bit :)
2dcoder	"Personally, because I feel the quality of future projects has gone downwards a bit :)" You must have a crystal ball! :) LOL. Could you elaborate a bit on that comment?
Peter	quote: Personally, because I feel the quality of future projects has gone downwards a bit :) Well, right now I'm seeing a resurgence of interest in VB gaming after about the 2 years or so of real neglect after you, me, and many others stopped being active participants b/c of college, university, jobs etc.
2dcoder	Almar posted: "Personally, because I feel the quality of future projects has gone downwards a bit :)" Which makes me think his impression was the quality of future VB programs were going down, in the future? Perhaps I misunderstood that comment? :)
masterbooda	"Well, right now I'm seeing a resurgence of interest in VB gaming after about the 2 years or so of real neglect after you, me, and many others stopped being active participants b/c of college, university, jobs etc." I could have misinterpeted this comment, but it sounds to me like, you and others, sway the activity of the vb gaming community... or there has been a stagnant period.. how is that? As for downward quality of future projects... I do not see that at all... not to mention, how could one gauge that? As for the resergence in vb programming, Just because I haven't been posting in here, does not mean I haven't been active in the community, and that goes for alot of people in here... this forum, honestly is a small part of the whole programming community.. and I just recently decided to start posting here again.. I'm constantly seeing new things, because I am all over the net and not tied down to one place... I feel that the interest has always been there... Of course I could be wrong on this... DaBooda out...
Eric Coleman	quote: Originally posted by masterbooda I could have misinterpeted this comment, but it sounds to me like, you and others, sway the activity of the vb gaming community... or there has been a stagnant period.. how is that? [...] Just because I haven't been posting in here, does not mean I haven't been active in the community, Could you show us what you've done over the past 5 or so years that has contributed to the vb game programming community?
masterbooda	http://www.planetsourcecode.com/ Just type in Drew Stickney and Da' Booda in the search box... I contributed programs under both names... I was just pointing out that when certain people are not in here, doesn't mean it was stagnant... Just because I close my eyes, doesn't mean the world stops... there is a certain club in here, that if you are not part of, you are not taken seriously... when everybody can contribute, and has, and will... A certain "Group" doesn't move the world of vb, because the world of vb moves around them, it is quite large... Just because the rank of somebody in here is low, does not mean they are new to the vb community, just to the site, to believe that everything revolves in this site as it where the benchmark for vb, is a little arrogant in my opinion... but of course I am just a knave... and I wasn't in this site when this topic was talked about before, but that doesn't make it any less important now... DaBooda out...
Peter	Well this site itself is actually quite recent, Eric and I created it in 2002 and we actually did it during a really stagnant period and the only way new stuff we saw for the first few months was when I was cranking out updates for VoodooVB and Alpha 7 ;) Before VBGamer there was the nexus and the nexus was something that David Goodlad turned the original hub of VBgaming, VB Gaming Central into back when it was ran by Adam Hoult. Anyways, VB development may not revolve around this site and its predecessors, but vb game development sure does ;) The reason the vb game community was stagnant for a while is because the majority of interesting and ambitious projects were done by a very small group of people. Like you had Enigma (non-linear adventure game set in a huge and awesome looking 3d world), Quadrant Wars (true netcode that allowed action-style gameplay), DDCK (had its flaws but was the first really ambitious game to be completed and had great graphics and an interesting concept), Galaxy (huge gameworld and the promise of excellent gameplay), Gladiator (a 3d tactical battle game), and a few others that were really pushing the boundaries and were even beginning to move in the right direction to be commercial quality. And other than that group of projects there was just a glut of SNES style RPGS and MMORPGS (as far as I know none of which have really been completed). And those types of games are fine to make to learn programming, but its not really anything that lights the fires. In addition, we were also the only ones that wrote tutorials, like if you take a look at DirectX4VB, VoodooVB, and Lucky's VB Gaming site, which have like the majority of the tutorials that deal with vb game development, all of the contributors to those sites including the 3 webmasters number at around 12. So if we're a little arrogant its because we've earned it ;)
Eric Coleman	There are two different things to consider. Graphics can be either 3D or 2D, and then the gameplay can be either 3D or 2D. The difference is that a game can have 3D graphics, but the actuall game play is limited to only 2D. Warcraft 3 is a good example of that. The graphics are 3D, but the gameplay is "mostly" 2D. Doom, Quake, Halflife, and other first person shooter games have 3D gameplay because you're not limited to just moving in 2 directions and things that happen in the game aren't limited to 2D either, you can be shot at from above and below for example. Personally I prefer 2D gameplay. As for 2D or 3D graphics, 3D can really make a game look nice. I like the old 2D side scrolling Super Mario Brothers and 2D Zelda games a lot better than the 3D versions. Of course, if someone used the old graphics from Super Mario brothers to create a clone of the game and someone else used nice 3D blocks and 3D parallax backgrounds with pretty particle effects to create a 2D side scrolling Super Mario Bros. clone, I would prefer playing the one with 3D graphics.
masterbooda	I still play nintendo on an emulator, I do like the fact that 2d games are being reborn... I want to see more original ideas though, if not at least an attempt to make a good idea better... I see alot of remakes, and I am guilty of this also, for I have at least 3 different versions of pong to my credit as well as working on some nintendo game remakes(not mario, there is enough of those, like pong), but when it comes to physics testing, pong is a good place to start. I think the main problem is, is that we are programmers and the actual creation part of the game is, at least for me, the hard part. And unfortunately the only people that are interested in VB are programmers, because all the game creators, are, sad to say, creating with a different language, when in my opinion, vb is fully capable of making a great game... but if we keep trucking along, we can prove to this commercial guys, that it is by far a better choice of language. Its better than C++, in many ways... because it actually opens up the gaming world to more people... Also I have mentioned this before in another post, but creating a game in 3d(the actual creation part, not the coding) is alot easier, because you can get that awe effect without alot of work. This is why I encourage more 2d work, for one you can actually get down game techniques, that will transfer over into 3d, especially with what eric said, about the 3d games that are 2dimensional in movement... And I would recommend to any game programmer who is truly serious about game programming to program in a low level language, because when you are stripped away from graphic capability, you have to force yourself to actually utilize the game code, not to mention gaining a newer appreciation of Visual Basic. I would recommend QBasic, just make one game in it.... DaBooda out...
Sr. Guapo	The only advantage of 3D over 2D is the "awe factor." As I mentioned in another post, 2D games require the programmers and designers to put more effort into the other areas of the game, mainly the story line. Who would play the oroginal Zelda if you were in a single room and fought the same monsters over and over. 2D can be much better than 3D, as long as the graphics void is filled with other components.[;)]
2dcoder	If I recall correctly, the first Deer Hunter was designed in Visual Basic. It was primarily a side scrolling game. It sold a ton of copies. Looking over the news posts and forum posts, alot of you probably have never marketed a game before. You would be surprised what can actually sell. The majority of users that buy 2D games are the 30+ demographic. The guys that grew up with Mario, Sonic, Castlevania, Bezerk, Pac Man, Tempest, Galaga, BattleZone, etc. They love to re-live the feeling those classic games gave them. Back to VB. If you (as a vb programmer) think VB can't write a good quailty game that warrants a price, then that is YOUR lack of programming, marketing skills talking. Not the fault of the language. I have no idea what these games were written in, but a good example of some "new" 2D games (some using old ideas) for research are: http://www.arcadelab.com/ http://retro64.com
Dan	quote: The only advantage of 3D over 2D is the "awe factor." Hmm, Afraid I'll have to dispute that claim. There are plenty of other advantages of 3D over 2D, The main one being the game world can be viewed from any anglewith out the need of generating new art assets. quote: Back to VB. If you (as a vb programmer) think VB can't write a good quailty game that warrants a price, then that is YOUR lack of programming, marketing skills talking. Not the fault of the language. The fact your on a VB Gaming site - I think you maybe preaching to the converted. It is generally well known that c++ is a faster language over VB - but you are correct in that it has no other advantage, DirectX is still DirectX no matter what language is calling the shots. it seems like you have an inferiority complex with regards to 2D VB Games, Wan'na talk about it?
masterbooda	And I am thankful to the tutorials, do not get me wrong, you guys have done a bang up job... better than I could have done or do now.. But I am weary of the posts coming off a little arrogant, because it might give future vb'rs a bad impression... that is all I was saying, I think the attitude should reflect an openess to ideas... And I will admit, that my temper gets the better of me, and I have very little tact in situations, but I always apologize and recognize when I am wrong... And yes you have earned it, but a little restraint is good for everybody.... trust me, modesty is the best of all virtues... This is just life experience talking... DaBooda out...
masterbooda	I just wanted to add this quote, I wrote this in a short story along time ago and I feel will fit this situation: "From the Elders we shall seek knowledge, but from the Newborns we shall seek ideas" And I appreciate the knowledge recieved from your tutorials, trust me, DaBooda Turbo will not even exist without it, but I also respect the ideas of newer people.. DaBooda out...
2dcoder	"And I appreciate the knowledge recieved from your tutorials, trust me, DaBooda Turbo will not even exist without it..." Then you should 100% credit the authors of those tutorials in your source code and on your website.
VBBR	Hum... talking about ambitious projects... Well, wait some minutes until I start my new thread!
Almar Joling	quote: Originally posted by Peter Well this site itself is actually quite recent, Eric and I created it in 2002 and we actually did it during a really stagnant period and the only way new stuff we saw for the first few months was when I was cranking out updates for VoodooVB and Alpha 7 ;) Before VBGamer there was the nexus and the nexus was something that David Goodlad turned the original hub of VBgaming, VB Gaming Central into back when it was ran by Adam Hoult. Anyways, VB development may not revolve around this site and its predecessors, but vb game development sure does ;) The reason the vb game community was stagnant for a while is because the majority of interesting and ambitious projects were done by a very small group of people. Like you had Enigma (non-linear adventure game set in a huge and awesome looking 3d world), Quadrant Wars (true netcode that allowed action-style gameplay), DDCK (had its flaws but was the first really ambitious game to be completed and had great graphics and an interesting concept), Galaxy (huge gameworld and the promise of excellent gameplay), Gladiator (a 3d tactical battle game), and a few others that were really pushing the boundaries and were even beginning to move in the right direction to be commercial quality. And other than that group of projects there was just a glut of SNES style RPGS and MMORPGS (as far as I know none of which have really been completed). And those types of games are fine to make to learn programming, but its not really anything that lights the fires. In addition, we were also the only ones that wrote tutorials, like if you take a look at DirectX4VB, VoodooVB, and Lucky's VB Gaming site, which have like the majority of the tutorials that deal with vb game development, all of the contributors to those sites including the 3 webmasters number at around 12. So if we're a little arrogant its because we've earned it ;) My thoughts, exactly. The last few months on Lucky have been most type of questions which can easily be googled on to, and if you do not google/Read DX SDK docs, you do not get your game finished. I think it's that easy :). (unless you already have all the knowledge) btw, Since everyone has DirectX9 installed by now, Quadrant Wars will work now through my own connection. I might give it a try soon enough... Since the game is still just semi-finished laying around. I'm always wodering if I should rewrite is one more time, but with Winsock, allowing linux servers :). hm, I wish Adam Hoult gave the source of Enigma once :). It looked so extremely cool. Anyway, I didn't want to be arrogangt, but for me, personally it's just a fact...